JBPARK
Senior Member
Seoul, South of the River
Korean
- Aug 16, 2012
- #1
"...Even the sun sets in paradise." Dear Venerable Veterans, Is the position of "even", I'd personally be more happy with it being moved right in front of "in paradise". But who am I to make that call? It might be OK as it is. I would appreciate our veterans' take on it.
<lyrics from "Payphone", Maroon 5>
something along the lines of "Even life in paradise doesn't guarantee the absence of melancholy"?
The sentence, the way it reads, sounds like the sun, along with other things that set, also sets in paradise, which isn't what, I think, the lyricist tries to mean.
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B
Beryl from Northallerton
Senior Member
British English
- Aug 16, 2012
- #2
"Even the sun sets in paradise" means that everything sets in paradise, and the sun is no exception.
"Even in paradise does the sun set" means that the sun set everywhere, paradise included.
JBPARK
Senior Member
Seoul, South of the River
Korean
- Aug 16, 2012
- #3
Beryl from Northallerton said:
"Even the sun sets in paradise" means that everything sets in paradise, and the sun is no exception. "Even in paradise does the sun set" means that the sun set everywhere, paradise included.
Off of the neat explanation Beryl gave,
My point being, while there is grammatically nothing wrong with the former,
it doesn't seem to make much sense to me in terms of its semantics, for what it's worth.
What can "everything sets in paradise" possibly mean?
I think the lyricist meant the latter but went with former.
Einstein
Senior Member
Milano, Italia
UK, English
- Aug 16, 2012
- #4
JBPARK said:
I think the lyricist meant the latter but went with former.
I think you're right. I've never seen anything else "set" (except cement, but that's a different meaning), so "even" should refer to paradise: "the sun sets even in paradise", or, with Beryl's inversion, "Even in paradise does the sun set".
gramman
Senior Member
North Kingstown, Rhode Island
American English
- Aug 16, 2012
- #5
Hi JBPARK
>>I think the lyricist meant the latter but went with former.
I work sometimes as a copyeditor, and in my experience lyricists are people best left alone in this context. They often don't want anyone to even know what they're working on, fearing it will interfere with their "artistic magic." I suppose there must be some who are NOT egomaniacal neurotics, but I've yet to meet any.
wandle
Senior Member
London
English - British
- Aug 16, 2012
- #6
You are right, JBPark. It would make sense to say 'The sun sets, even in Paradise' or 'Even in Paradise, the sun sets'.
Both these sentences mean that the setting of the sun cannot be avoided, even in Paradise.
Another possible way is: 'It is even true that the sun sets in Paradise'. I suspect this is what the writer wanted to say.
Beryl from Northallerton said:
"Even the sun sets in paradise" means that everything sets in paradise, and the sun is no exception.
Beryl from Northallerton is right to give this as the meaning of the original. She has not said so, but this meaning is nonsensical.
W
Wil_Estel
Senior Member
Bangkok, Thailand
Thai
- Aug 16, 2012
- #7
I see your point JBPARK. So let's look at the two sentences.
... even the Sun sets in paradise.
...the Sun sets even in paradise.
For me the difference lies in emphasis. The first focuses on the Sun, whereas the second focuses on paradise. Meaning-wise they are not all that different.
JBPARK
Senior Member
Seoul, South of the River
Korean
- Aug 16, 2012
- #8
Einstein said:
"the sun sets even in paradise", or, with Beryl's inversion, "Even in paradise does the sun set".
Which I think it's a beautiful line.
Einstein
Senior Member
Milano, Italia
UK, English
- Aug 16, 2012
- #9
Wil_Estel said:
For me the difference lies in emphasis. The first focuses on the Sun, whereas the second focuses on paradise. Meaning-wise they are not all that different.
Not just emphasis; they are quite different, as others have already said:
... even the Sun sets in paradise = in paradise everything sets, even the sun
...the Sun sets even in paradise = the sun sets everywhere, even in paradise.
perpend
Banned
American English
- Aug 16, 2012
- #10
These mean the same to me:
Even the sun sets in paradise
The sun sets even in paradise
For what it's worth.
"Even in paradise does the sun set" is a tad poetic for me, but it's a similar meaning.
Maroon5, lyrics? God only knows, as others above have stated. Only the writers know, if "even" they do. Wait a sec, if they "even" do.
JBPARK
Senior Member
Seoul, South of the River
Korean
- Aug 16, 2012
- #11
Just for the record, I got no problem with artists messing with the order of words to achieve whatever artistic, magical effects they desire.
But for this particular instance, I just couldn't help myself but to put on the hat of "grammar weasel"
since I thought, when taken out of its lyrical dimensions, it had potential to be such a beautiful and "QUOTABLE" line only if it were less dubious grammatically.
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Chasint
Senior Member
English - England
- Aug 16, 2012
- #12
Don't forget that other heavenly bodies; the moon and the stars, set. So "even the sun sets" seems reasonable to me.
wandle
Senior Member
London
English - British
- Aug 16, 2012
- #13
Biffo said:
Don't forget that other heavenly bodies; the moon and the stars, set. So "even the sun sets" seems reasonable to me.
If you compare the actions of people, it makes sense to use 'even' like this.
'They are so cultured in Paris! Even the street cleaners speak French!' (one of my grandmother's jokes).
However, the actions of the heavenly bodies are regular and predictable. They follow a certain pattern, which cannot be varied.
Thus it does not make sense to say 'The moon and the stars set: even the sun sets'.
There is no real possibility that things could be different.
Chasint
Senior Member
English - England
- Aug 16, 2012
- #14
wandle said:
...
However, the actions of the heavenly bodies are regular and predictable. They follow a certain pattern, which cannot be varied.
Thus it does not make sense to say 'The moon and the stars set: even the sun sets'...
I don't understand your argument. All heavenly bodies rise and set. This is owing to the rotation of the Earth, not to the movements of the moon and stars.
Calculations of Moonrise, Moonset and Moonphase in United Kingdom
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?obj=moon&n=136
Sorry to be pedantic...
wandle
Senior Member
London
English - British
- Aug 16, 2012
- #15
Well, if we are describe these movements from the viewpoint of the earth, the other heavenly bodies are moving: and from the viewpoint of any other heavenly body, the earth is moving.
However, that is not the point here. The issue is how to use the word 'even'. It implies something unexpected or additional. Once we grasp the fact that heavenly bodies move regularly according to predictable laws, we can no longer say sensibly 'The moon and the stars set: even the sun sets'. This could be said deliberately as a joke, though.
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Einstein
Senior Member
Milano, Italia
UK, English
- Aug 16, 2012
- #16
Another interpretation: Everything happens in paradise, even sunset. This way we are not concentrating on either the sun or the setting.
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